You’re doing it wrong


So there was a post on the warden boards last week titled “What makes a bad warden” that got me thinking about the things players do that drive me batty while they’re in our fellowship.  I don’t mean this as a bashing thread, more a “what not to do” discussion.  This was further reinforced as shortly after reading that thread I did Sword Halls with 2 captains and had no less then 3 fear debuffs on me the entire time – even after asking in chat numerous times for a muster!

Hopefully by looking at what others don’t like about our class we can all become better players.  Essentially this is the inverse of the “what I wish others knew about wardens” post meant to help folks find what others don’t like about what they do.  I mainly play a warden, captain, or minstrel so I know the most about them – so if a class has a shorter list it mainly means I just don’t know it well enough or group with enough bad ones to have pet-peeves.  So in no particular order please don’t be one of those people that do the following things:

In general

  • not considerate of others time
  • un-announced afk’s
  • not prepared (no food/pots, wrong gear, etc.)
  • not knowing their class
  • not listening, or repeating the same mistake over and over again
    • “don’t hit the mezzed mobs”
  • Anyone with a cure that doesn’t use it (captains muster courage, hunters poison, LM wound, etc.)
  • Not assisting the main assist (use the window)
  • not letting the main puller pull
    • usually it should be the tank, but crown control pulls are handy
  • not removing corruptions if it assigned to you (or you’re a champ/warden that can “spam” them)
  • fighting for agro – pick a tank and go with it, even if you’re a tanking class
    • force-taunting off the tank usually isn’t a good idea.  Not only is it annoying to the tank but it also confuses them as they may think they’re losing agro when if fact usually it will pop back once the taunt wears off
    • Only force taunt when someone asks you to
  • Positioning:
    • Don’t:
      • Stand in fire (or something equally nasty)
      • stand in an area with AoEs
      • run too far away from the group
      • run away from the tank if you pull agro
    • Do:
      • stay behind mobs while not tanking
        • you take MUCH less damage this way
        • comment by xhii – mobs can’t block/parry attacks from behind, so better chance of hitting
        • burgs definitely get a damage bonus, but I’m not sure about others
      • stay in range of your healer
      • comment by vr00mfondel keep mobs together as it allows folks with AoEs to use them
      • if you’re tanking – pull mobs a bit away from the group and spin them around such that their back is to the group (real key for Trolls)
        • comment by xhii – keep mobs in front as you can’t block/parry attacks from behind

Wardens

  • If tanking – not using full breadth of skills (HoTs and buffs for example)
    • you should hear lots of shouting 😉
    • and see lots of shield bashing
  • Not traited properly (spear line for tanking as an example)
  • trying to be a hunter and attacking from range only (yes I have actually seen this outside of the moors)
  • Not using AoEs
    • Or using too many AoEs when group wants to use crowd control
  • Not paying attention to other mobs that may be hitting minstrel or other squishies
  • not interrupting
  • not having masteries slotted, or not using them (you can see the icon over their head when used)
  • having the “Skill and Power” trait slotted

Captains

  • Not buffing or re-buffing
  • Going to mention it again – not using Muster Courage
    • will/fate de-buffs are VERY painful and MC is a group cure/resist buff
    • Plus if traited it is a self-heal!
  • not marking targets
  • using a herald (there are RARE cases when this is a good thing)
    • and if you use a herald, keep it under close control as you don’t want it pulling extra mobs
  • not replanting banners, or using the wrong one
    • pay attention and switch to power if folks get low

Minstrels

  • war-speech while healing in more difficult fights
    • it can be done, but generally it is scary
  • not using anthem of free people
  • not using resist ballads
  • using too many big heals and pulling agro
  • wrong tale, or not refreshing it after silence
  • not using threat reducing tools (song of soothing, anthem of compassion, lute strings, etc.)
  • wrong instrument (not using threat reducer, or power reduction)

Guardians

  • In wrong stance for job (OP for tanking, etc)
  • (many similar to wardens)

Champions

  • Not interrupting
  • Pulling too much agro with their AoEs and dying (they’re REAL squishy at times)
  • thinking they can tank but either not knowing how or not being geared/traited for it
  • being a dumb champ
    • sorry, champs (all DPS classes) get bad raps as they’re notorious for going all out DPS and not paying attention to anything else.  DPS is good, but living is better 😉

Loremaster

  • mezzing random mobs
  • not draining power
  • wrong pet
    • keep it under close control as you don’t want it pulling extra mobs
  • not debuffing

Hunters

  • pulling with heart-seeker
    • or insisting on pulling in every case
  • using the wrong stance
  • comment by vr00mfondel and BlueKae (rewording my traps comment) my thought here was that Hunters should know how to use traps and when they can be helpful in certain circumstances.  Claiming they have no CC abilities is just annoying – that’s what I was getting at, or trying to.
  • being a “huntard”
    • pulling wrong or additional mobs, etc.
    • going full out DPS in strength stance

Runekeepers

  • not knowing how to flip attunement
  • similar to hunter/champ, need to be conscience of DPS – if you get a big crit or something back off as with Mirkwood squishies pulling agro is a bad idea

Burglars

  • not starting conjunctions
  • not debuffing

Most of my pet-peeves are just general group gameplay that are good habits for folks to adopt.  There are some class specific ones, but the biggest class specific one (for me) has to be the captain  not using muster courage.  This is HUGE as I’ve been in many fights where the entire group is low on power and we all have a ton of fear de-buffs – one muster courage gets rid of all of them and helps prevent more from coming in the future.

If you play a class that has a removal skill, please take some time to understand which de-buffs are bad and which ones folks can live with.  Small DoTs are fine, but one that are 300+ per tick or –250+ to a skill should be removed ASAP.  And if you don’t have a group wide skill the order should usually go healer –> tank –> everyone else.

As for DPS classes, I’m probably being a bit harsh on them – but just like everyone else you need to watch what you’re doing and no go full-out all the time.  Like I said earlier, they’re just seem to be more likely focused on their own damage output and nothing else.

Now I’m not perfect by any means so during trash pulls I’m a bit lazier and do many of these things as it just doesn’t matter.  However, for boss fights or harder instances many of these will immediately result in a group (or raid) wipe.

I hope this helps, feel free to comment, correct, add more, yell at me, etc but hopefully there’s something in here that has helped someone out.

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15 responses to “You’re doing it wrong

  1. Good list of dos and don’ts. Most of it seems like obvious common sense to me, but I’ve been in enough pickups to know that commons sense is fairly rare.

  2. “stay behind mobs while not tanking”

    Players as well as mobs can’t block or parry from behind -> tanks should always position themselves so they face all mobs, since they can’t block/parry blows coming from behind, and non-tanking classes (especially dps) should always stay behind mobs so their damage skills don’t get b/p’d 🙂

  3. As a hunter I do most of the things listed, except laying traps. Most times I’m grouped, it is a full group and we’re normally moving at such a fast pace that I barely have time to get myself fully focused before combat starts. In the few cases where I do get a chance to drop a trap or snare, it is inevitable that the front line melee players will run past it anyway.

    • yeah, I probably should have worded that differently – mainly meant not knowing how or that you can lay traps. Certainly it is situational but can be hugely effective – as evidence from my video on the 3 man instance “Starlight and Shadows”

      • In PUGs using traps can be really hard, for the reasons Blue Kae mentioned above. There’s just no time, everybody just runs straight into the fight. Same thing when I’m plying my cappy, some groups are impossible to buff correctly because people just run off.

        Now, I have to admit, as a hunter, i do pull with heart seeker sometimes. But that’s not always bad. Yes, you will get aggro, but atleast you’ll keep the aggro (and the mob/boss) in one place until the tank can take over. Also, it gives the tank a bit of a “head-start” as you take the first punches. But ofcourse, the group has to be informed, or it may all fail horrible.

        In the “General”-section i would like to see “Keeping mobs together”. Champs, but also hunters have some really nice AoE attacks, wich are completely useless when the mobs are spread over a large area.

      • Yeah, I need to re-work the trap comment – it doesn’t read the way I meant it 🙂 Points well taken.

        As for heartseaker I can sorta see your point but that also makes the mini have to work harder as they’ll have to heal you since you have a smaller health pool (usually) which puts them higher on the threat list and more likely to pull agro. Plus if you’re tank is a warden – it is REAL hard for us to catch up as we have no agro resets like guards do. So your plan can work with a guard, but is very hard with a warden. IMO it just creates a more stressful start to the encounter. The main place I see this helping is PURE dps races – the fire boss in HoC for example as you need to burn him down FAST.

        Grouping mobs is a great comment – adding that as well.

  4. Love the list. 🙂 Definitely a good checklist for me to go through before grouping. Sadly solo/duo-ing most of the time makes my group skills go down the drain.

    I personally can’t stand it when someone tells the group that they should be the tank/dps/healer because their gear is better or because they have traits that (enter obscure player name here) says are the best. And then they completely stink at it and refuse to take suggestions. You know, like using appropriate skills, positioning, etc.

    Now I have a good post to send them to. 😀

    • Yeah, I get in solo ruts too – usually my first group runs are a tad tricky. However, since skirmishes are kinda groups (soldier + couple NPCs) it isn’t bad practice.

      And I’ve been in quite a few of those – I usually try to make suggestions and offer but if they want to walk down that path so be it. But after the first wipe if they won’t change I’ll leave the group politely. Oh, and that may be a next topic 🙂 assuming I don’t see it on someone else blog…

  5. Pingback: Newb vs Noob | A Casual Stroll to Mordor

  6. Good list of do’s and don’ts, from a hunter perspective we tend to get allot of flak in the instances from some regarding stances or agro. And allot of the time they are fair comments. Here are my views and maybe help non hunters to understand them a bit better;
    Heart seeker pulls: I rarely do these in a group as that really sets the fight off on the wrong foot unless your intention is to get agro. But if you hit ‘Beneath notice’ directly after this will usually drop you down the agro list and allow the tank to latch on but a ‘heart seeker’ pull will agro everything within 10 miles of the target, I prefer to hit ‘heart seeker’ as part of a ‘needful haste’ barrage, less induction times plus you maximise your ‘beneath notice’ time.
    RoT Pulls: Very useful as it keeps the targeted mobs at a distance and less likely to be accidentally released but usually all the mobs break at the same time.
    Hunter pulls: This can make sense in some situations, the hunters ‘quick shot’ puts a slow speed on the mob it hits and if you have the legacy in your bow you can really slow them down. If I pull I always pull with quick shot, it slows them down has less treat, so may not pull too many if any ads and a high chance of a critical.
    Focus: Give hunters time to get Focus before agro.
    Traps: Trip wires are useful to get a chance of FM at the start of a fight. Triple traps are handy cc and others can be used to protect healers briefly from stray ads. Obviously the main critic is not enough time given to set this up or not using target forwarding or target assist to ensure trapped ads aren’t released early. I keep a stack of triple, tripwires, bear and unbreakable traps in my bag.
    Stances: Everyone has different views on this but using only 1 stance throughout a fight doesn’t make sense, sometimes low treat is needed (which means allot lower dps), ‘precision’ stance is a good choice too if you need to make consistent hits and increased chance of critical hits, ‘strength’ stance will shorten the fight but may shorten your life and will deplete your power quickly and for long fights no power = no dps so ‘endurance’ does just that keeps you in the fight longer doesn’t pull agro easily and if a dps run is needed just switch to ‘strength’ and even ‘burn hot’ – to finish them off or do as much damage as you can before you go down. ‘Fleet stance’ good fun when shooting grey mobs for deeds but that’s about it.
    Class items: yes we have them – use the lower treat or lower power consumption they really help allot.
    Bow chants: I use breachers allot, they really buff up your ranged shot penetrate migration.
    Poison purge: Like healer you should have a priority list, remember when the hunter is purging they are out of the fight for 3-4 seconds.
    Agro bounces: Hunters are very good at this especially when using ‘swift bow’ ect. I used this technique in the 16th hall a few times bouncing agro back and forth between me (hunter) and the tank (warden in this case), the warden took abit longer to get agro off the hunter than the other way round but this worked very well to take down the last boss while the team stayed out of the way of the mushrooms and the healer had no issues keep are bars all green.
    Kiting with agro: when the need arises, getting agro and kitting with auto ranged attack works quite well, used this a few times while the group took down the ads or leading the boss were you want him like into traps or in ‘The Forges’ into the fire dudes as they die and explode with oil. Giving the target the odd burst of ‘swift bow’ followed by ‘penetrating shot’ keeps the agro and allows you to keep kiting, strength stance of course.
    DPS: Obviously hunters are handy at burning down ads while the tank holds the boss, make sure you don’t sacrifice all your power on the ads and have nothing left for the boss. Works well if you have ads that spawn in the fight such as FG final boss.
    Curruption removal: Yes we can do some, ‘Merciful shot’ this can or cant be a big hit but what most don’t realise is it will remove up to 3 corruptions, unfortunately it cant be used until the target is below 50% but for boss’s it can be worth knowing. Longish cooldown and 2/3rds focus needed. Doubt it will ever be called upon.
    Agro: If you get unwanted agro just stop shooting, kiting the target back to the tank away from the healers.
    Auto attack: I have this disabled by default and enable it manually once I have targetted a mob, this avoids inadvertant pulling when the mob dies.

    • wow, that’s some great stuff! I’m quite the hunter noob as mine is only 15. I do appreciate them when played well and I’ve had the joy of playing with some really poor ones as well. I guess I’m mainly spoiled as one of my better in-game friends is a REALLY good player and I’ve teamed with her hunter since closed beta 🙂

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